Talk:Licenses

Against DRM 1.0

In my opinion, Against DRM 1.0 is a free content license.

• This license is incompatible with any technology, device or component that, in the normal course of its operation, is designed to prevent or restrict acts which are authorised or not authorised by licensor: this incompatibility causes the inapplicability of the license to the work.

• Any breach of this license [...] will automatically retroactively void this license.

The sense is clear: licensor cannot license with Against DRM 1.0 a work protected by DRM, because the license is inapplicable to works protected by DRM. Inapplicability of the license => no juridical effects.

Licensee cannot protect the work or derivative works with DRM: if licensee protect the work or derivative works with DRM, the license will be void.

Where is the vagueness? --Tom 02:32, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

I find the "incompatible with .. acts which are authorised or not authorised" passage to be vague. Which acts, exactly, are we talking about? Could this mean that a licensor can say: "I disagree with your usage of encryption to conceal your personal data, as this is not an act which I have authorized?" Moreover, there is not even a reference to the work itself in the passage, so it's not clear to me that it only refers to "acts" which are related to the work. I think this passage needs to be explicit that we are talking about reducing the rights of others to the work through DRM.--Erik Möller 02:45, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

Which acts, exactly, are we talking about?

It's very simple: what does licensor authorize with the license? :-)

4. Grant of rights

Licensor authorizes licensee to exercise the following rights:

a. right of reproduction; (act of reproduction, act of multiplication...)

b. right of distribution; (act of distribution, act of diffusion...)

etc. etc. etc.

The law (EUCD) say: the expression ‘technological measures’ means any technology, device or component that, in the normal course of its operation, is designed to prevent or restrict acts [...] which are not authorised by the rightholder of any copyright or any right related to copyright.

Where is the vagueness?

The sense is clear; these acts are: reproduction, distribution... and any copyright or any right related to copyright. --Tom 03:12, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

I do agree with Erik, the wording is much too broad and vague. "acts which are authorised or not authorised" is completely unacceptable as it can mean anything (acts which are not authorized, by construction, are not part of license, in contrast to what you would like to let us think).

Instead "acts which are not authorized" are part of the license: these acts concern possible moral rights. --Tom 15:18, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

By the way, 1) EUCD is not a law but an European directive 2) when the law is vague or dishonest, it is not helpful to base an argument on it. --Antoine 13:23, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

The law (EUCD is applied with national laws) is law: if you want legally oppose DRM, you must speak the language of the law. --Tom 15:18, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

There is no point in trying to oppose what the law defines as DRM rather than what you find immoral. About EUCD, what part of "European directive" don't you understand? Each country drafts its own transposition of EUCD and transpositions can be very different from the original. --Antoine 15:28, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

A license is a legal instrument and a legal instrument must be based on law. A license not based on law is not much effective and a license not much effective realizes nothing (moral principles, ideals etc). I think that you don't know directives' compulsoriness. --Tom 20:26, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

Merely repeating yourself without reading what other people answered does not make you right... I guess this makes the thread dead, unless you want to bring fresh arguments onto the table (like on the cc-fr mailing-list, by the way). --Antoine 01:12, 3 May 2006 (CEST)

Other people? Who? I'm sorry but I'm not accustomed to uncivil tones of voice. You can speak with other people. :-) Thanks. --Tom 11:08, 3 May 2006 (CEST)

No need to use strong terms like "completely unacceptable", I'm sure the Against DRM license has good intentions which are very much in line with the goals of the definition. The question is, could it be clarified and improved? Tom, could you perhaps state what your position is in this matter - are you directly involved with the license? If so, we might be able to hook you up with some legal people from Creative Commons or Wikimedia.--Erik Möller 13:28, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

I'm not involved with the license: I'm a jurist and I like this license for many reasons (what you call "vagueness", I call, in this case, "elasticity" and "knowledge of right"). A license is a technical text that must be analyzed with a technical background. In my opinion, in this simple license nothing is casual. --Tom 15:18, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

One might also refer to the debian-legal thread about Against DRM 1.0. --Antoine 14:35, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

Superficial discussion. :-) --Tom 15:18, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

GNU General Public License

Any reason this license isn't included as a free content license? --Ricardo Gladwell 14:13, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

It is, under "all free software licenses".--Erik Möller 14:15, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

Apologies, I missed that. Wouldn't it be better to explicitly list the GPL as many individuals use it as both a software and contennt license? - Ricardo Gladwell 14:36, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

Erm, it is, under "all free software licenses", which is followed by, "including the GNU GPL ..", but feel free to arrange the page differently.--Erik Möller 22:23, 2 May 2006 (CEST)

Ricardo, I've tried to change the wording so as to make it explicit that the GPL is a proper free content license. Feel free to improve :) --Antoine 01:51, 3 May 2006 (CEST)

License characterization

I think the current rough list is fine at the moment (the high priority task is to have a clear, precise, ethically correct, internationally secure Definition ;-)). However, in the future it will be useful to characterize the licenses more precisely according to a grid of criteria. Here are some criteria I suggest:

Copyleft / non-copyleft

Well, this is easy. Let's not forget about "agregation" however. For example, the GPL is a copyleft license which allows agregation with non-GPL works; the FAL is a copyleft license which does not allow agregation with non-FAL works (unless the resulting work is not considered a derived work under copyright law).

Attribution / non-attribution

Easy as well.

Access to source code

The GNU GPL mandates access to source code. The GFDL mentions transparent versions, which may (may not??) equate to source code. I don't know about any other free content licenses requiring access to source code; are there any?

The GFDL requires a source copy of the document, which must also be "Transparent" (that is, a simple, open standard format). The Design Science License also requires a source copy. --Ricardo Gladwell 12:57, 7 May 2006 (CEST)

Internationalization scheme (translation / adaptation)

This one is rarely mentioned. There are roughly two main internationalization schemes currently:

• the GNU/FAL style: GNU licenses have only one legally binding version which is the original English one. The Free Art License is translated into several languages but translations are literal. The net effect is similar in both cases: the exact same concepts and clauses apply to everyone in the world.
• the CC style: licenses are not just translated, they are adapted. Consequently, licenses can be slightly different. For example, the French CC licenses have different wordings, warnings and restrictions compared to the American ones.

It is not obvious whether both of these schemes make for safe international interoperability. However, it is important that the issue is explained.

Overhaul

Ok, so I've finally tried to give a clear structure to the page. I'm not sure to what level of detail we must go when talking about each license. In any case, help is welcome since the list is far from exhaustive. --Antoine 19:10, 20 May 2006 (CEST)

Er, 82.60.46.173, could you log in and tell who you are? It is easier to collaborate with human beings than with IP addresses ;) About your edits:

• I would like to know why you removed the blurb about the Against-DRM License; it is an important question to know who wrote a license, so that we also understand their philosophy and their intents for the future;

Movimento Costozero ( http://www.costozero.org/ ) is one of the most important association in Italy for digital freedoms ( http://www.costozero.org/wai/p10.html ). They invented Copyzero ( http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyzero ) and all their projects (for example, "Scarichiamoli!" , supported by Stallman, Lessig and Creative Commons Italy) aim at freedom. It's sufficient?
--Carlos 01:27, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

The problem is not whether it's sufficient, it's why the Against DRM web site does not state any of this. A whois result is not a very interesting information since it doesn't indicate a statement of intent. I think it would be clearer if the Against DRM web site made a clear statement about its authorship, and also provided at least some insight into what philosophical values it wants to promote. --Antoine 01:58, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

The problem was that you did not know who wroted the license, his philosophy etc.. Now you know who wrote the license, his phylosophy etc. ... but the problem is that the Against DRM web site does not state any information about who wrote the license. :-) What can I say you?? Contact them! Speak with them. :-) --Carlos 02:36, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

The problem is not for me, it's for potential users of the licence and for the general public. Inquiring in private is not practical and is not a sign that the authors are willing to provide information. --Antoine 12:12, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

I don't understand the problem, Antoine: if an anonymous killer or Osama bin Laden publish a good free license, I use and suggest that license because it's a good free license. STOP. If Lessig publish a not free license ( this, for example: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/devnations/2.0/legalcode ), I don't use it. STOP. We must value only if a license is free. However, it seems that we know who writed that license and his philosophy... so I really don't understand the problem.--Bob4 10:26, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

I disagree with you. A license (especially a copyleft license) also often comes with an ecosystem, a community of authors sharing together some values. It is not an ad hominem argument as you try to make it look like. Licenses don't only have a legal value, they have a social and normative value. That's why the intent of the authors, the existence of a community are important. --Antoine 12:12, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

A license is a legal text. STOP. If Osama bin Laden publish a good legal text, I use it with any problem. However, there is a not secret organization behind that license. Where is the problem, Antoine? Why do you ignore this? --Bob4 12:32, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Again, the problem is explained above. I'm not interested in repeating myself...

As for "a license is a legal text. STOP.", we'll have to agree to disagree. --Antoine 12:42, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

We have two different opinions: where is the problem? It seems that you want always the last word. :-) No problem! The last word is your!--Bob4 20:19, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Actually, I agree with Bob4 here. Of course a license is also accompanied by a community, but the community is nothing without a properly drafted and clear license. What is important is whether a license permits the publication of free content or not according to our definition, everything else is fluff. --Ricardo Gladwell 20:26, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Who wrote Free Art License?
You are Antoine Moreau? Can you tell me about your philosophy and your intents for the future? I'm sorry but I don't know you. You have an organization (without irony)?--Carlos 01:32, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

I'm Antoine Pitrou, Antoine Moreau is a different person. As for the Free Art License, like most other licenses (including GNU and CC ones), its web site features detailed information about the history of the license, its intent, its authors, etc. (granted, many of those texts are in French) --Antoine 01:58, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Related rights

About "related rights", I don't agree that other licenses reserve them as you state. For example, the Free Art License is meant to grant them to the user (clause 2.1). Creative Commons licenses also grant them (clause 3c and 3d in by-sa 2.5). I welcome your help in solving these points. --Antoine 20:39, 20 May 2006 (CEST)

• • 2.1 FREEDOM TO COPY (OR OF REPRODUCTION)

You have the right to copy this work of art for your personal use, for your friends or for any other person, by employing whatever technique you choose.

This is another thing: this is the freedom to copy the work (economic right)... all free content licenses grant this (the author/licensor grant this right). Related rights aren't rights of the author; they are rights of producers and executors. An example: I'm an author of a song and I release it under Free Art License. A producer takes my song and produces a CD with my song (new execution of my song): producer and executors acquire related rights over CD and registrations. So you can copy and distribute the work (the corpus mystichum). You can copy the registrations (the corpus mechanicum) for private use (private copy). But you cannot copy and distribute (etc, etc.) these certain registrations.

Which is the solution?

"Against DRM" say:

... performances of the work, phonograms in which the work is fixed, broadcastings of the work must be released with a license that provides:
a. the renunciation to exclusive exercise of rights referred to in the articles 4 and 5 (copyrights + related rights);

You can grab CD and share mp3 only if producer and executors expressly renounce to their exclusive rights (related rights)! Free Art License doesn't speak about related rights. Free Art License speak only about copyrights (the rights of the author).--Carlos 01:27, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Did I say 2.1? I'm sorry, that should have read 2.2. Clause 2.2 of the FAL is "2.2 FREEDOM TO DISTRIBUTE, TO INTERPRET (OR OF REPRESENTATION)". Freedom to interpret and freedom of representation covers related rights, at least as I understand it. Clause 2.3 of the FAL also talks about "distribution (or representation) of the modified copy".

Do you agree that CC licenses (at least by and by-sa) also grant related rights? (clauses 3c and 3d in by-sa 2.5)

--Antoine 01:58, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Creative Commons License say:

For the avoidance of doubt, where the work is a musical composition:

Performance Royalties Under Blanket Licenses.
Licensor waives the exclusive right to collect, whether individually or via a performance rights society (e.g. ASCAP, BMI, SESAC), royalties for the public performance or public digital performance (e.g. webcast) of the Work.
Mechanical Rights and Statutory Royalties.
Licensor waives the exclusive right to collect, whether individually or via a music rights agency or designated agent (e.g. Harry Fox Agency), royalties for any phonorecord You create from the Work ("cover version") and distribute, subject to the compulsory license created by 17 USC Section 115 of the US Copyright Act (or the equivalent in other jurisdictions).

These royalties are possible only because some related rights (on corpus mechanicum) are exclusive. So CCPL expressly reserved related rights for music (for the avoidance of doubt: infact, these related rights - as I said - are reserved also without this specification). --Carlos 02:09, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

My English dictionary tells me the verb to waive means to renounce one's rights. Therefore, the meaning of this clause is certainly the opposite of what you are saying: the licensor (not licensee) gives up his rights to collect royalties related to performance and the like.

Also, you said nothing about clauses 3c and 3d in by-sa. You can't ignore them, can you?

--Antoine 12:12, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Sorry I omitted the most important part (the final part):

The above rights may be exercised in all media and formats whether now known or hereafter devised. The above rights include the right to make such modifications as are technically necessary to exercise the rights in other media and formats. All rights not expressly granted by Licensor are hereby reserved.

As in Free Art License, Licensor grant his rights (also related rights, but his related rights). Instead, License expressly reserves related rights that Licensor not granted (logically also related rights of other persons: executors and procuders). It's very simple: you can consult Creative Commons about this. Only in "Against DRM" related rights are copylefted.

This is the great invention of this license, imho.--Carlos 14:58, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

No doubt it's an interesting point, but it doesn't justify negating the fact that other licenses do provide related rights; the license list is not here to promote a particular license. I'll modify your last edit so as to give more useful information.

By the way, when you significantly modify existing contents in a page, could you justify your edits somewhere in the discussion page? Thanks in advance. --Antoine 19:20, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Now I see Free Art License . :-)--Carlos 02:12, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

2.2 FREEDOM TO DISTRIBUTE, TO INTERPRET (OR OF REPRESENTATION)

You can freely distribute the copies of these works, modified or not, whatever their medium, wherever you wish, for a fee or for free, if you observe all the following conditions:
- attach this license, in its entirety, to the copies or indicate precisely where the license can be found, - specify to the recipient the name of the author of the originals,
- specify to the recipient where he will be able to access the originals (original and subsequent). The author of the original may, if he wishes, give you the right to broadcast/distribute the original under the same conditions as the copies.

Author/licensor is speaking about his rights: logically licensor give you, for example, the registration x of his song. He authorises you to copy registration x (because he is the owner of the related rights concerning registration x). But what about registration y executed by A and produced by B? The license doesn't bind executors and producers to the renunciation of their future related rights.--Carlos 02:28, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

The only interpretation you could draw (and I'm not convinced it's the proper one) is that the Free Art License is not copyleft when it comes to related rights. But it doesn't mean it "reserves" them since they are explicitly granted to the user.

--Antoine 12:12, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Only the related rights of the author (as executor and/or producer) are (logically) free (otherwise you cannot dowload that copy of the work!).

But any other related right is reserved (expressly reserved in CCPL).

Infact, I maked an example concerning future related rights of other persons.--Carlos 14:58, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

I just had an answer from a lawyer who interprets section 3 of the FAL ("3. INCORPORATION OF ARTWORK : All the elements of this work of art must remain free, which is why you are not allowed to integrate the originals (originals and subsequents) into another work which would not be subject to this license.") as concerning all possible uses of the work in subsequent work, including performances, recordings, etc. In that interpretation, related rights are copylefted under the FAL.

--Antoine 19:56, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Do we know for a fact that the GPL and GNU FDL do not cover related rights? Aren't related works covered by derivative works language? Is this important in all jurisdictions? --Ricardo Gladwell 20:16, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Related rights does not regard software. So GPL (and the other software licenses) does not speak about related rights. It's normal. --Bob4 20:32, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

I appreciate the response, but that isn't what I asked: Do we know for a fact that the GPL and GNU FDL do not cover related rights? Aren't related works covered by derivative works language? --Ricardo Gladwell 20:43, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

GPL Non-Attribution?

I'm not sure if the GPL should be categorised as a non-attribution license: isn't the requirement that it requires that the original copyright notice be kept equivalent to attribution? --Ricardo Gladwell 20:33, 20 May 2006 (CEST)

I'm not sure either. I've tried to talk about this point in the Attribution section. It seems to me that often, copyright notice and authorship notice are separate; the copyright notice merely mentions the main or initial author (or the corporate copyright holder), while the authorship notice lists all contributors. --Antoine 20:41, 20 May 2006 (CEST)

Can the copyright notice not also be used as a mechanism for attribution as well? I.e. by listing all the contributors in the copyright section. --Ricardo Gladwell 19:29, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

I think the mere difference is that you can do it but you don't require others to do so. Subsequent versions of the work may adopt a different policy (for example including contributors' work without giving authorship), without the original authors having a word in it. An Attribution clause prevents that.

As for knowing whether this is important, well... ;) --Antoine 19:47, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Is that a substantial difference? Subsequent contributors can choose to list authors in the copyright notice. Optional attribution is still attribution. --Ricardo Gladwell 20:11, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

The attribution clause is a requirement, just like copyleft or source code requirements. That's the whole point of it ;-) Of course, you can always grant more rights than the license asks you to. --Antoine 20:38, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Why do you say that, Antoine, that seems like a spurious requirement for an attribution license. Why should we require attribution even on anonymous, unwilling contributors? The attribution in the GPL is still required in the sense that you must maintain copyright notices. What more is required? --Ricardo Gladwell 20:42, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

I also note that you list the attribution in the GFDL as "partial" - whatever that means. This seems unncessary. --Ricardo Gladwell 20:47, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Anti-DRM provisions

Hi everyone,

I'm not sure why some people seem to consider that the GPL and GFDL include some anti-DRM provisions.

• The GPL v2 clearly doesn't (v3 should remain off-topic until it is officially released, IMHO).
• As for the GFDL, I don't think "transparent copies" can be considered "anti-DRM" in the same way as the CC licenses. The GFDL does not forbid use of DRM, it only mentions that you must also provide a copy in a transparent format.

Your thoughts? --Antoine 19:43, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

GFDL: You may not use technical measures to obstruct or control the reading or further copying of the copies you make or distribute. Antoine, this is DRM!--Bob4 20:11, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Indeed, Antoine, if you are preparing this page you should really be reading the licenses in question more carefully. I'm also not at all certain why we need to provide a license matrix: surely, on this site, all we care about is whether a license is free content or not, according to our own definition. I'm sure the information is useful, but it seems useless for our purposes other than as some attempt to bash other, non-CC and non-AL licenses. -Ricardo Gladwell 20:19, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

I similarly note that the GFDL *is* an attribution license:

List on the Title Page, as authors, one or more persons or entities responsible for authorship of the modifications in the Modified Version, together with at least five of the principal authors of the Document (all of its principal authors, if it has fewer than five), unless they release you from this requirement.[1]

I would recommend you familiarise yourself with the licenses in question. --Ricardo Gladwell 20:23, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

The matrix is not meant as an absolute reference, just to give a clearer view of the landscape. Erik's request was for a license guide and I thought categorizing licenses against a set of criteria would bring a bit of clarity in the landscape.

We could just make a textual description of each license, but it would be even more subject to judgemental commentary (for example, the FSF's commentary in their list of licenses is usually far from neutral; it is not a problem for the FSF since it is really one person's voice). So I'm not sure what alternative can be found which would be both useful and rather objective.

Thanks for the corrections on the GFDL, by the way.

--Antoine 20:34, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

I this best solution is to simply maintaining a list of free and non-free content licenses with descriptions of why they are or are not free content, as per the FSF. The matrix as it stands seems designed to favor CC licenses. --Ricardo Gladwell 20:39, 21 May 2006 (CEST)

Hmm, I'm a bit confused if the matrix really seems designed to favor CC. What makes you think it is? I am not a CC fan...

I have chosen some initial criteria that I found were important. I had already proposed this criteria in the discussion page (see #License_characterization). Other people added additional criteria (namely, "Anti-DRM" and "Related Rights").

As I said in the page, the criteria are not meant to indicate whether a license is "good" or "bad" (some people prefer copyleft, others non-copyleft, same for anti-DRM clauses, etc.) --Antoine 20:53, 21 May 2006 (CEST)