Talk:Which name should you use?

A choice must be made

I think the definition must make a choice. Either it is "Free Content", "Free Expression" or whatever else. Having two (allegedly) equivalent expressions doesn't cut it, it blurs the message. For example, the FSD is the Free Software Definition; there is also an Open Source Definition; there is no "Free Software and Open Source Definition". Settling on a single term sends a clear message and makes it easier to stick in people's minds.

By giving alternatives, we make it look like we don't know exactly what we want to talk about... We also make people focus on the ambiguity in the title rather than the clear message in the definition.

(I personally find "Free Content" and "Free Creation" are the two best choices, but it doesn't really matter; what matters is that a decision is made) --Antoine 01:43, 3 May 2006 (CEST)

Agree, with my vote going for "creation"(i think "free culture" is best of all, but this seems to be taken :-) My english is far from perfect, but if "free thought" has same connotations as it has in polish i would seriously consider also that JaroslawLipszyc 02:25, 3 May 2006 (CEST)

I think "free thought" is a very bad choice because thinking is not the same thing as creating works at all. Having ideas is part of the process of creating, but it is not in itself threatened by copyright (well, except clauses prohibiting analysis of DRM systems).

What is a stake is the actual process of creating and sharing works, which is much more than simply thinking and expressing ideas (which is why I also think "free expression" is bad :-)).

I'm sorry if my wording is not very clear, but it's not easy to try to explain this (especially, for me, in English). I tried a similar explanation under "things which are not works of the mind". --Antoine 02:41, 3 May 2006 (CEST)

I'm not sure we must decide for a single name. Two names seem like a reasonable compromise as it will be very hard to please everyone with a single phrase. Some prefer a term which is pragmatic and neutral ("free content"), others may prefer one which is artistic and natural ("free expression"?). "Creation" is a controversial term within the GNU/FSF world; see the Words to Avoid page on GNU. Then again, so is "content". I personally like "free content" because it is already in use with the meaning we apply to it, especially in the Wikimedia world. I would be very reluctant to give up that part.--Erik Möller 15:10, 4 May 2006 (CEST)

I think free content is probably the term that will stick: it's far from perfect (I agree with the FSF, clumping all works as a single commodity 'content' is reductive) but it's in common usage already (as is open content[1]) and it's probably the most natural sounding (which will go along way towards its wider adoption). The only problem with free content other groups define it elsewhere by other groups which might cause friction.

I think we should avoid "free expression" - while free content/software can be seen as an extension of freedom of expression/speech the reverse isn't necesarily true: you can have freedom of speech/expression without free content. It also sounds a bit grandiose. --Ricardo Gladwell 21:58, 6 May 2006 (CEST)

Paths of naming

The way I see it, there are two possible paths of terminology: Either we try to define one or two basic terms which encompass the largest number of works possible (as was originally the goal with "Free Content and Expression Definition"), or we define a single all-encompassing term which is, however, always instantiated to refer to a specific work. To clarify, either we just have something like:

• Free Content
  • works of a primarily functional nature, e.g. scientific data, encyclopedias, etc.
• Free Expression
  • works of a primarily artistic nature, e.g. music, paintings

Or we have a more complex model:

• Free Culture
  • generic: Free Content
  • code: Free Software
  • music, paintings, etc.: Free Art
  • scientific data, publications, etc.: Free Knowledge
  • interactive play: Free Game

The definition, in this second case, could be called "Free Culture Definition", and the specific terms appropriate for certain works would be listed within it.

I'm somewhat undecided on the issue. On the one hand, I'm worried about an inflation of names. On the other, I'm worried about adoption. How does "This painting is Free Art, as per the Free Culture Definition" sound? As opposed to "This painting is a Free Expression, as per the Free Content and Expression Definition".

I note, in fact, that rough beginnings of a "Free Culture Definition" have been drafted on the Free Culture Wiki. Another opportunity to merge efforts, along with the Open Knowledge Definition?--Erik Möller 16:48, 4 May 2006 (CEST)

Hi Erik,

I object to the idea that works could be inherently functional or non-functional. Nelson Goodman (a philosopher and theoretician of art) explained that we should replace the question "What is art?" with "When is art?". It means the "artistic" or "functional" aspect is related to context, not only to the work involved (i.e. is_functional(...) is not a single-argument function of the work ;-)).

This translates in concrete situations. Like Ricardo has explained, in the context of role-playing, computer games, etc., works can have a functional or artistic role depending on the situation. It is not a sophistic argument, but a concrete one.

I also want to point out that splitting into several terms defeats the whole point of writing an unified definition. It defeats our view that contents must be re-usable beyond the original intent of the author. I don't mind if the original author had a functional or artistic intent in mind, I want to be able to choose another intent for my own uses, and my own modifications to the work. This is really what an unified definition is about.

Of course, free software and free art already exist as actual movements and sets of practices and ideals. But we are trying to go further than that and provide an unified, yet clear, definition. We are trying to create our own norm, based on our own ideals, not to build a compilation of existing norms. And I'm sure some of these movements will agree with this goal (the free art movement does at least, the Free Art License people support the goal of an unified Free Content Definition).

Hope that helps :-))) --Antoine 18:07, 4 May 2006 (CEST)

Mmmh, interesting web page about Goodman's view of art. --Antoine 18:24, 4 May 2006 (CEST)

Functional vs. artistic aside, one could argue that if it was called the "Free Culture Definition", and the phrase would only occur in the context of the definition itself, while the works would always be described in more specific terms ("free art", "free software", etc.), it would be easier to arrive at a single definition that is a superset of all others, and that it would increase the likelihood of people referring to the definition itself. "This work is free X as per the Free Culture Definition" is always self-explanatory: One needs only to look up the Free Culture Definition, and it is clear what this means. "This work is free X", on the other hand, will always be ambiguous, not least because of the ambiguity of "free".--Erik Möller 18:26, 4 May 2006 (CEST)

Instead of saying "This work is free X as per the Free Culture Definition", why not just say "This X is a Free Content" or "This X is Free Culture" ("this painting is free culture", etc.)?

But I don't think it's an important issue anyway ;) --Antoine 18:48, 4 May 2006 (CEST)

The above distinction between 'Free Content' as functional works and 'Free Expression' as artistic works in my view makes no sense. It requires subjective judgments - one person's function can be another's art. Where would, for example, a history book fall? History is a form of storytelling but does contain many facts such as an encyclopedia. Also, sculptural works may serve both functional and aesthetic purposes. I also don't think one needs an umbrella term which then gets broken down into sub-categories. Those sub-categories can then be the subject of further debate & disagreements as to what free per. art means. Isn't the point of this exercise to define "free" as applied to cultural works once & for all? In this case, the relevant statement is "This work is free per the Free X Definition." I am in favour of calling it a "Free Content" Definition. Expression is the activity. Content is the result and is broadly encompassing of a variety of different forms of expression. --Mia 13:21, 7 May 2006 (PDT)