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m (Reverted edit by 2601:780:4400:3740:2C48:1834:F852:83AA (talk) to last revision by Mormegil)
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* '''[http://freecontentdefinition.org/index.php?title=Talk:Definition/Unstable&action=edit&section=new Start a new discussion topic]'''
* '''[{{fullurl:Talk:Definition/Unstable|action=edit&section=new}} Start a new discussion topic]'''


== Rewording Edit ==
* [{{fullurl:Talk:Definition/Unstable|oldid=2129}} Archived comments until June 20, 2006]
* [{{fullurl:Talk:Definition/Unstable|oldid=8702}} Archived comments until January 3, 2010]


I submitted a relatively large change. While the diff itself may be big, especially in the preamble, but I don't think I've made significant changes to the tone of the content. As a result, I think it is probably alright coming this late.
----
__TOC__


Here's a summary of the larger changes or set of changes that I made:
== [[User:TruthWorldOrder]] Edits ==


I removed a number of "therefores", and a number of comma-separated clauses acting as parenthetical asides that I thought it could survive without. I tried to break up a few long sentences. This was all purely stylistic.
For what it's worth, I agree with [[User:Mormegil]] and his [http://freedomdefined.org/index.php?title=Definition%2FUnstable&action=historysubmit&diff=12071&oldid=12070 recent revert]. I don't understand what problem [http://freedomdefined.org/index.php?title=Definition%2FUnstable&action=historysubmit&diff=12044&oldid=12024 the edits in question] are trying to solve. Perhaps if they are explained them here, we can talk about it. —<b>[[User:Benjamin Mako Hill|<font color="#C40099">m</font><font color="#600099">a</font><font color="#2D0399">k</font><font color="#362365">o</font>]][[User_talk:Benjamin Mako Hill|<font color="#000000">๛</font>]]</b> 19:41, 26 September 2011 (EDT)


I dropped the "in addition to a requirement of author attribution" from the preamble because it's clear without it (IMHO) and because it seems to qualify a statement about essential freedoms which we speak out against below. I think it's best to state clearly that there are essential freedoms and then there are some extra restrictions that do not in fact have an impact on these essential freedom.  Attribution is one of these but need not be specially cases. This way it doesn't sound like an exception but an explanation that it is ''by definition'' free.
== Suppressing copyleft ==


In two paragraphs of the first three paragraphs there are these two lists:
In re 171.226.171.169’s ''I am trying to delist GFDL, GPL, LGPL, CC-BY-SA and other copyleft licenses'': While I can understand (and, for a part, agree with) the opinion that copyleft licenses are not “free”, I have to point out that this would be an ''extreme'' change of the definition. Note that this definition originates at Wikipedia/Wikimedia Foundation, which use copyleft licenses extensively (the whole body of Wikipedia text is licensed under CC-BY-SA, for start), and which use the Definition as the [[wikimedia:Resolution:Licensing policy|criterion of acceptability]]. Changing the Definition so as to exclude copyleft would mean the whole Wikipedia contents would be against its own rules.


:artistic works, scientific and educational materials, commentary, reports, and documents
I just can’t imagine the definition could change so radically (without becoming a completely different definition). An alternate definition is possible, but would be exactly that – ''alternate'', not just a new version of this.


:Works built by communities collaborating as volunteers, art created for the purpose of shared enjoyment, essential learning materials, scientific research funded through taxpayer money, and many other works do not benefit from artificial scarcity.
--[[User:Mormegil|Mormegil]] 09:48, 17 October 2011 (EDT)


They seem to be redundant so I've tried to reduce it to just one list where the the first list was.
I'd think that CC-BY-SA and LGPL may be free, but GFDL and GPL are '''obviously''' non-free. Because you can include CC-BY-SA or LGPL works as part of works distributed under other licenses, but you cannot do the same thing with GPL and GFDL works. This is also why Wikipedia has moved from GFDL to GFDL + CC-BY-SA.
Section 5 "Combining Documents" of the GFDL:
:You may combine the Document with other documents released under this License, under the terms defined in section 4 above for modified versions, provided that you include in the combination all of the Invariant Sections of all of the original documents, unmodified, and list them all as Invariant Sections of your combined work in its license notice, and that you preserve all their Warranty Disclaimers.
:The combined work need only contain one copy of this License, and multiple identical Invariant Sections may be replaced with a single copy. If there are multiple Invariant Sections with the same name but different contents, make the title of each such section unique by adding at the end of it, in parentheses, the name of the original author or publisher of that section if known, or else a unique number. Make the same adjustment to the section titles in the list of Invariant Sections in the license notice of the combined work.
:In the combination, you must combine any sections Entitled "History" in the various original documents, forming one section Entitled "History"; likewise combine any sections Entitled "Acknowledgements", and any sections Entitled "Dedications". You must delete all sections Entitled "Endorsements".


I've removed "regardless of their profession, their beliefs, their country of origin, or any other criteria" and just say "anyone, anywhere, for any purpose." I think it's just as clear and more general.
[[Special:Contributions/171.226.97.137|171.226.97.137]] 07:56, 31 October 2011 (EDT)


I switched the strange switch into the second person in the paragraph with the god like creator. It read nice but was a jarring switch.
: Maybe I don’t understand your specific point, but AFAICT you ''cannot'' generally combine a [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ CC-BY-SA] work with a work under an other license, or, more specifically, when you combine a CC-BY-SA work with another work, the result must be licensed under CC-BY-SA as well. That is the same copyleft as in GFDL/GPL. On the other hand, LGPL allows you to combine an LGPL work (usually, a library) with another work (usually, an application), and distribute the result under any license. You cannot do that with CC-BY-SA, that is what the “share-alike” (-SA) tag is all about. On the other hand, [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ CC-BY] is a non-copyleft license which would allow that (but it is not the license Wikipedia uses). --[[User:Mormegil|Mormegil]] 11:52, 1 November 2011 (EDT)


I added a line or two mentioning that some licenses are also used purely to take away people's freedoms. ASCAP is a licensing organization. The last draft talks about licenses as if they are only used to give away freedom but they were first used to sell freedom in restrained ways.
: True, GPL might allow less freedoms than for instance the MIT license. However that does not necesserily make GPL a non-free license. If you define a ''free license'' as the license with the most freedoms, then even the MIT/BSD/... licenses would have to be considered non-free, then only public domain could be considered truly free. However as there already is a definition for the public domain, the whole project of "Definition of Free Cultural Works" would not make sense then. Of course, the problem remains as of how broad you would want the Definition of Free Cultural Works to be. But from looking at the previous versions, the idea and intention of Definition of Free Cultural Works seems to have been to cover copyleft licenses as well, as they do not harm the main idea and purpose of Free Content. As [[User:Mormegil|Mormegil]] said before, excluding copyleft licenses is a completely different definition. Maybe you are more looking for http://copyfree.org/standard/ instead? --[[User:T X|T X]] 14:36, 1 November 2011 (EDT)


I was confused by the line: "Indeed, depending on the nature of the work, it may even be unethical to deny any of the enumerated freedoms above." It seems like our argument in this document is that it's always unethical, on some level, to restrict essential freedom. I think that this sort of confuses the issue and, in any case, don't add much where it was.
== Definition of "Can" missing ==


I removed this phrase:
"Free Cultural Works are works which anyone can use, study, copy, change and improve..." -> Tribes in a lot of countries don't have computers - and therefore ''can't'' use the MIT/GPL/... licensed software I wrote. So my work is not a Free Cultural Work? (I guess such a conclusion is not intended)


:This definition only covers freedom in terms of copyright law; usage of a work may be restricted by other laws.
Maybe a definition for certain words, like "can", "may", ... should be added. Similiarly as keywords were specified for IETF's Internet Standards / RFCs (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2119). --[[User:T X|T X]] 13:37, 1 November 2011 (EDT)


I guess I have two issues here. First, it's not clear what these other laws and this sounds very legalistic for a statement of principles. More importantly, it seems like we would want to oppose other types of freedoms articulated in other types of law as well. The FSD is useful in opposing patents just as well as copyright (which the overly forumlate OSD could not). I don't think it's necessary.
In a similar vein, "should" is used a lot where some might argue for "must" (see http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt ) ([http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-licenses/2011-December/006433.html idea from]). - [[User:KTucker|K]] 17:48, 12 December 2011 (EST)


I've removed this phrase:
== Merging 4 freedoms to 3, explicitly adding 'Distribution' ==


:"Explicitly, it ''must not'' limit commercial use of the work."
Free Cultural Works are works which anyone can
* Use
* Study
* Copy
* Change and Improve


Because I basically moved it into the list of essential freedoms above.  There was already an example there and I think that this is important enough it's worth dealing with a little higher up in the document. I think it's now more clear and doesn't need to be mentioned below.
I'm having two points I do not quite like about these four freedoms:


-- [[User:Benjamin Mako Hill|Benjamin Mako Hill]] 02:01, 30 April 2006 (CEST)
* 'Study' is a form of 'Use': It's just a more specific form of usage - which, agreed, a lot of EULAs and laws try to exclude.
* 'Distribution' should be added: If you were only looking at these four freedoms, even some content which you get via an NDA might fit these points. You can use, study and even copy the work for your own needs, you may change and improve it - however you won't be allowed to share any of these things afterwards.


: I'll have another edit later. The main problem I have is with the changes in the first few paragraphs about "information goods". First, I don't like this phrase because it essentially adopts the language of information as property, a commodity. I find it somewhat amusing that you would choose this language given your objections to the word "content". ;-) I find the argument against attempts to equate information with physical property very persuasive, and am inclined to remove this phrase entirely from the document.


: The second problem is with the change to the examples enumerated in the beginning. The ones chosen  - "Works built by communities collaborating as volunteers, art created for the purpose of shared enjoyment, essential learning materials, scientific research funded through taxpayer money, .." - were chosen explicitly because the argument that ''these'' works should be free is strongest and most persuasive. Reworded, it essentially sounds like a declaration against copyright on "anything that can be represented as a sequence of bits". This can definitely not stay this way.--[[User:Erik Möller|Erik Möller]] 02:54, 30 April 2006 (CEST)
Therefore my suggestion, making more a whole trinity with each point of the trinity being a duality:


::Sounds good. "Information goods" was clumsy and we're better off with out it.
* Use and Study
* Copy and Distribute
* Change and Improve


::I'm still worried by the list of things. We're suggestion, but not defining, the scope of the document here. Something to think about and work out in drafting period. --[[User:Benjamin Mako Hill|Benjamin Mako Hill]] 05:36, 1 May 2006 (CEST)
So that the second verb of each freedom is actually a more specific form of the first verb of each freedom. The purpose of the second verb is to better reflect the true, good intent of the more neutral, more generic action defined in the first verb of a freedom, and to place some emphasize on this good intent, the idea behind it.


== Fair Use ==
(I'm not quite sure whether I'd prefer the word 'distribute' or 'share'. Maybe a native English speaker could give some insight on what (s)he thinks the differing connotations might be.) --[[User:T X|T X]] 04:25, 4 November 2011 (EDT)


Angela made the point that we should position our definition vs. the existing rights of fair use. This echoes some of the sentiments of Larry's response. So we should think about that before we take it live.--[[User:Erik Möller|Erik Möller]] 17:09, 30 April 2006 (CEST)
:: The libre knowledge definition puts it this way:
<center>
{| class="wikitable" width="50%"
|
Users of libre knowledge are free to


Made some further edits as per the above. Avoided explicitly mentioning fair use for now to avoid confusion, might add that later.--[[User:Erik Möller|Erik Möller]] 02:28, 1 May 2006 (CEST)
:(0) use the work for any purpose
:(1) study its mechanisms, to be able to modify and adapt it to their own needs
:(2) make and distribute copies, in whole or in part
:(3) enhance and/or extend the work and share the result.
|}
</center>
::i.e. "study" is about being able to adapt/modify - use (0) and adapt (1) to ''help yourself'', "copy" (2) is about sharing to ''help your neighbour'', and the last freedom (3) is to clarify that you can also share your modified versions (to ''help the community'').


:I'm not entirely clear defining our position in regards to fair use should mean here. I'm concerned because (a) fair use is only in the US a few other countries. Some other juristictions have similar "fair dealing" law but there are important differences. It's also a balancing act left up to judges and can sometimes be very unclear. I'm also concerned because (b) fair use is a set of compromises that is supposed to balance what would be overly restricted copyright. Our argument here is that copyright ''is'' always overly restricted and that we need to not settle for fair use rights but for something more meaningful. Or am I completely off-base here? --[[User:Benjamin Mako Hill|Benjamin Mako Hill]] 05:44, 1 May 2006 (CEST)
::Personally, I prefer to retain the link with the [http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html free software definition] as does the [http://wikieducator.org/Declaration_on_libre_knowledge libre knowledge definition]. Knowledge and cultural resources cannot be regarded as free if they cannot be accessed and modified with libre software. Consistency is important. - [[User:KTucker|K]] 18:12, 12 December 2011 (EST)


:: No, I think you're right. From an ethical perspective, I think that it is important that fair use rights are ''also'' protected and broadened, but I'm not sure if this belongs into this definition. For now, I have added the phrase "Only very limited freedoms are granted to others" to clarify that copyright is not absolute; perhaps that is sufficient.--[[User:Erik Möller|Erik Möller]] 05:47, 1 May 2006 (CEST)
==Libre==


:::I think an argument can be made that it is important that any definition expressly acknowledge fair use (US) or fair dealing (rest of the world) and/or any other exception or limitation to copyright law. This is because of recent judicial decisions that tend to find, for example, that one can contractually override exceptions to copyright law (such as reverse engineering). Thus, I think it could be important to clarify that licenses that satisfy the free content/expression definition are "fair use/fair dealing plus" and grant a layer of permissions in addition to and on top existing exceptions to copyright law. Happy to leave this up to community discussion, however.--[[User:Mia Garlick|Mia Garlick]] 10:12, 1 May 2006 (PDT)
Please make it clear that this would also be the "[[Libre|libre cultural works]]" definition.
:: The libre knowledge definition is completely compatible as far as I can tell. It appears in some form on the following pages: [http://wikieducator.org/Declaration_on_libre_knowledge Declaration on libre knowledge], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libre_Knowledge Libre knowledge on Wikipedia] and [http://wikieducator.org/Say_Libre Say libre]. i.e. at some key point state that free means "libre"/"free as in freedom" - perhaps as simply as writing free/libre at least once near the beginning. - [[User:KTucker|K]] 18:37, 3 March 2012 (EST)
:: I have created a parallel "libre" version - [[Libre|Libre Cultural Works Definition]] - but would prefer this not to be necessary. Discuss this issue right here or on the libre version's [[Talk:Libre|discussion page]] - Thanks - [[User:KTucker|K]] 18:39, 5 March 2012 (EST)
::I find the gratis meaning of "free" to be very confusing to newcomers and am in favor of reworking the text to use "libre" or another unambigious adjective. [[User:Cov|Cov]] 19:18, 2 May 2013 (EDT)


Fair use is not unified at all among countries, so referring to it in the definition would introduce uncertainty and complication (unless the definition also gives its own definition of fair use). Moreover, fair use is completely covered by the rights specified in the definition AFAIU. --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 20:43, 1 May 2006 (CEST)
== Free-Libre-Open Hardware Definition ==


I would submit that the issue of whether a specific acknowledgement that free licenses apply in addition to and on top of existing exceptions and limitations that exist at law should not be decided based on whether the term "fair use" is used or not. One can use the terminology that I have just used "exceptions and limitations at law." This encompasses jurisdictional differences.  And it should not be the case that "fair use" or any other exceptions or limitations are covered by the rights specified in the definition. In fact, I would have thought that the entire point of free licenses is to carve out a space that exists beyond what is currently provided for by law. --[[User:Mia Garlick|Mia Garlick]] 2:23, 2 May 2006 (PDT)
Hello, I'm starting a "friendly fork" of the OSHW Definition here because, currently engaged in writing a free/libre/open hardware project proposal to a set of potential clients who are not at all familiar with the whole genre of free/libre/open approaches, I feel the current OSHW Definition is not concise enough to just reproduce as an excerpt. I also feel the current OSHW Definition risks the same division between "open source" methods and "free" ethics that has complicated relations for years within the free/libre/open source software community.  


:Hi Mia. As far as I've understood you correctly, I don't agree. Your proposal doesn't encompass jurisdictional differences, it just ''hides'' them which is vastly different. If I read "exceptions and limitations at law", I don't know what the text is talking about because those exceptions and limitations are different depending on the jurisdiction. Consequently, the text has no normative value because people from different parts of the world will understand different things.
Back in 2004 while preparing a presentation deck for my Director General in government, I needed to cram the OSI definition into a single screen: http://www.goslingcommunity.org/gtec2004.shtml In the end I felt the short version I had adapted was more useful as a definition than the original, in the same sense that dictionaries also hold to very concise phrases. Over the years too, I came to see the importance of including both the methods and ethics elements into projects.  


:Let me stress it, because it is very important: ''the Definition should be totally independent of any local specifics''. There must be ''no international insecurity'' as to what legal system the definition is referring to when it is using a given expression. The obvious way to achieve this is to avoid any reference to regionally varying legal concepts (or only as a side note as is the case for moral rights; then fair use or legal exceptions to copyright might also be mentioned as a side note, not a constitutive part of the definition).
So what appears here as a "fork" to facilitate discussion is the current draft text that appears in my own free/libre/open hardware document.  


:Please take example from the Free Software Definition: it is worded in terms which are clear for everyone in the world (assuming they speak English ;-)), it does not refer to any non-essential legal concept. Actually even the notion of copyright is not essential in the Free Software Definition: it is mentioned only as a common way of implementing the FSD, not as a constitutive part of the definition.--[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 01:05, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
''DRAFT: '' http://freedomdefined.org/User:Jpotvin/Free-Libre-Open_Hardware_Definition


== Effective Technical Measures ==
I hope nobody is offended by this thorough change. Putting it up as a fork here just seemed to best way to discuss it without interfering with your main definition text.


In regards to the little back-and-forth about "effective technical measures." I now realize that you are using the term as a little legal term-of-art to distinguish between TPMs and things like formats or compression. However, I'm afraid it still blocks things like GPG/PGP encrypted email. I'm going to suggest a phrasing like, "technical measure designed to restrict the freedoms above from being exercised by the person to whom the work is distributed."
Regards,


This phrasing doesn't block things like encrypted email, compression, formats, etc. and doesn't require using a relatively obscure legal term. --[[User:Benjamin Mako Hill|Benjamin Mako Hill]] 05:52, 1 May 2006 (CEST)
Joseph Potvin


== Physical works (non-digital) ==
== Updating and creating a stable version. ==


[[User:Rgladwell]] said: How does the definition handle digital works (such as images, documents, etc) versus non-digitual works (such as hard-copy books, paintings, sculptures, etc)?  
Hello, my name is Michelle Kosik, I'm new to this so please excuse my inexperience. I was hopping we can make the font bigger or bolder. How do I change the version to the stable vershion?


:A requisite would be to replace "modified versions" with "modified copies". If one is allowed to make a "modified version" of a physical, autographic work of art, then the original is destroyed in the process. Not something we would like to encourage. --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 22:02, 1 May 2006 (CEST)
: You don’t just change the stable version. See [[Authoring process]] for more information. --[[User:Mormegil|Mormegil]] ([[User talk:Mormegil|talk]]) 05:18, 26 March 2013 (EDT)


::I'm not sure we can really consider physical works to be covered by the definition: concepts like distribution, copying and modifications do not seem to really apply. --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 23:50, 1 May 2006 (CEST)
== Permalink ==


:::You can read the [http://artlibre.org/licence/lal/en/ Free Art License]. It has been worded very carefully by artists and lawyers so that it ''does'' apply to physical works. The key is that there is a distinction between the ''original'' and ''copies''. Only ''copies'' can be distributed and modified (of course, this applies seamlessly in the digital world where any transmission of data is implicitly a copy). By recursivity, a ''copy'' becomes itself an ''original'' for the person who receives it, and can make ''copies of the copy'' (modified or not).
[[Definition]] should contain a link to [[Definition/1.1]] to make it easier for people to refer to that version specifically. (People who write books, for example, might not intend to link to [[Definition]] which is a moving target, but to [[Definition/1.1]] which their book refers to.)


:::All licenses need not be worded as carefully, but the Definition itself would be sub-optimal if its wording left this aspect onto the table.--[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 00:07, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
: I added the link into the grey introduction box. Do you think it is OK? --[[User:Mormegil|Mormegil]] ([[User talk:Mormegil|talk]]) 11:58, 17 February 2015 (EST)


::::In which case I would note that when they say a ''copy'' they seem to be talking about a converting an original to a digital work for which the freedoms can then apply. The freedoms mentioned in the above license do not seem to apply to ''originals'' at all, in which case I would argue that Art Libre are really talking about digital works in their license and avoiding the whole question of physical works. --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 11:47, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
== Expire of licenses if break ==


:::::You understood wrongly. ''Copies'' in the Free Art License can be analog copies (e.g. you can make an analog copy of a painting, which gives you a different painting). --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 12:50, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
Some licenses, that are declared as free, expire, if you break them. I can't see that this restriction is allowed. -- [[User:David23x|David23x]] ([[User talk:David23x|talk]]) 10:55, 1 October 2015 (EDT)


::::::I'm not sure it does: the license also talks about the freedom to modify copies which implies that the copies themselves must have the property of modifiability which, in my mind at least, implies they should be digital (certainly, painting copies would not seem to fall in this category). I'm not sure you can talk about free software/content freedoms in respect to non-software works without really talking about digital works. --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 14:09, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
== Source requirement on stable vs. optional source offer on unstable ==


:::::::Modified copies means the modification can take place in the course of making the copy itself. Like if you make a parodic copy of Mona Lisa: you don't need to first make a verbatim copy and then modify it. However, you ''can'' modify a non-digital work (a painting, a piece of sculpture...). --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 14:21, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
I have noticed, thanks to '''some''' people on a IRC channel on chat.freenode.net, that the stable version requires source files to be redistributed and be on a format/standard/codec that is friendly to free/libre software, while the unstable version puts redistribution of source files as an option.


::::::::I think the license authors should probably clarify that, the license seems to talk about the freedom to "modify the copies", but says nothing about the freedom to modify the reproduction process. Maybe the two things are the same thing but it would seem open to intepretation.
I, personally, see that, under the stable definition, almost no work would qualify as free/libre cultural work, not even those under free/libre licenses.
::::::::As for modifying painting and sculptures, you are right, of course, you ''can'' modify physical works although it's not a freedom I think a lot of people would use for sculptures and it's a freedom generally implicit in physical property law: once you buy a painting or sculpture you are free to do what you like with  it. OTOH, digital works need this freedom thanks to advent of things like DRM and non-modifiable file formats such as object code and PDFs. --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 14:34, 2 May 2006 (CEST)


:::::::::Mmmh, you should not mix up physical property law and "intellectual property" law. Even if you bought the physical medium of an artwork, it doesn't give you the right to modify the work, because the "intellectual property" still belongs to the author (unless the rights were also granted or transferred by contract).
I'm not a free/libre culture activist (I'm only a free/libre software activist that thinks that non-functional data (like images, sound, and such) should be at least shareable), but I just want to know why the changes related to this difference weren't made to the stable version? What's the reasoning for holding it? I know there's no consensus, but can you describe the points where the opinions
:::::::::This is especially true in countries where the moral right of the author is protected by the law, by the way. In France, if you buy a painting and then decide to destroy or modify it, the author can sue you (and he will win). --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]]
::::::::::Have no fear, Antoine, I'm not mixing the two up at all and explicitly differentiated between them in my remarks above. My point was that when you purchase physical property you are implicitly free to what you like with it (i.e. modify it). That the Art Libre license makes reference to modification of copies seems to imply they are talking about digital works. But I think you didn't address all the points I made above.
== Things which are not works of the mind ==
 
The word "content" is good for non-material commons, but what about "material commons" like grains, electromagnetic spectrum, genetic information, "commons" in general?. They need also a "free/freedom" definition. --[[User:Vjrj|Vjrj]] 02:13, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
: The Definition is about works of the human mind (and craft). It is not only a legal category, but also a philosophical one: creation of works - art works, software works, whatever - is a well-defined philosophical concept. The additions you are proposing do not belong to this category. Trying to find a "one-size-fits-all" ethical message only destroys the meaning of the message and transforms it into a meaningless slogan. But staying inside the boundaries of a clearly defined category of things helps us remain meaningful, and powerful.
 
:Of course, this does not preclude someone else from giving a definition for "freedom of genetic information", "freedom of water resources", "freedom of electromagnetic spectrum", etc. Only, the issues are very different and it would be sterile to try to explain them in the same terms as free contents.
 
:(btw., this kind of thing probably belongs in a FAQ ;-)) --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 02:27, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:: Ok, I get your pragmatic point of view. But only one comment. Think about seeds like code: used, improved, copied, studied in the past by every generation. Now we are changing from a free model to a private model ([http://www.ethicalinvesting.com/monsanto/terminator.shtml Monsanto's Nightmare] and similar). I prefer to use the term [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commons#Wider_usage_of_the_term Commons] that includes Free Content (non-material commons) and material commons.  --[[User:Vjrj|Vjrj]] 04:22, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::I understand your opinion, and I could agree if we were trying to write a Manifesto (which can be vague, broad, and very encompassing). But we are trying to write a Definition, which must be precise and based on firm (conceptual) ground ;-)) --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 14:23, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
== Source code ==
 
[[User:Erik_M%C3%B6ller]] said: Is it possible for something to be free content without the "source code" (or something equivalent) being available? Under the current definition, it is. Perhaps we need to find a wording that requires source availabiliy where such sources are essential to modifying the work.
 
:The common position among the Free Art License people (not that I always agree with them ;-)) is that providing the source code is a subcase of allowing to study the work. They argue that the source code is necessary to study software, while there is no such necessity for works of art.
 
:One could counter-argue that even if source code is not necessary to study a piece of non-software content, it is nonetheless very practical for doing modifications (the GNU GPL defines source code as "the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it").
 
:Of course another problem is that some kinds a work do not allow any clear notion of source code. --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 22:11, 1 May 2006 (CEST)
 
::From my own perspective, as a representative of the [http://www.freeroleplay.org/ Free RPG Community] there are many examples where a source code is a real requirement. A pen-and-paper roleplaying game can be both an artistic work as well as a functional work. Roleplaying games can be converted into software computer games so source code can be required for this. Many players frequently make house rules and ammendments so access to source code is requisite for this - both to the rules and to the . There are so many reasons to have a source code even from just our narrow field.
 
::This is quite aside from the fact that access to the source code of a free content work might be necessary not only to study the work, but to study how the work was put together. Trivially, this could mean as little as being able to examine a word processor document to see what fonts are being used, etc. A more important example could be being able to examine a layered image file to see how a image effect was put together.
 
::I'm not sure which works you are referring to that do not have a clear notion of a source code: the only such works I am aware of are non-digital works in which case the other freedoms may not apply anyway (see my remarks above). Please see my remarks here for more infomation: [[Talk:Definition]] --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 00:00, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::Ricardo, I fullheartedly agree that the distinction between artistic and functional works is a fallacy (I have already said this to various people, including RMS). That is why, in my opinion, the same broad freedoms should apply to free contents as well as free software (the wording of the definition can differ of course, and that's why we are here ;-)).
 
:::As for freedom for physical works, you can read my answer to your remark ;-))
:::But even for digital works, can simple "transparent" binary data be considered the source code for everything? Let's say I have the WAV recording of a concert. What do the bytes tell me about how the guitarist played the strings of his instrument, or even what precise notes he played, with what effects etc.?
 
:::Software writing is a symbolic activity (writing code is writing text according to certain conventions). As such, its representation as text (i.e. ASCII or Unicode bytes) is a perfect mirror of the way it functions. It is not necessarily the case with other types of works.
 
:::But I do agree that access to some kind of "source code" is important in many cases. Complicated isn't it? --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 00:23, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
::::It is indeed complicated and I'm glad you also disagree with RMS false distinction between "artistic", "functional" and "political" works.
 
::::IMHO I always found the GPL definition of source code (BTW, why isn't the GPL listed as one of the free content licenses?) to be the simplest and most flexible. For example, when start talking about things such as music recordings, photographs, etc, in other words works that originate with physical objects, it is often better to apply the freedoms to the digital copies only. In your example, it is prohibitive to provide the recording studio, instruments, etc that produced the original work, but it is simple enough to provide the "preferred form of the work for making modifications to it", in other words, the uncompressed WAV files or the music in some other modifiable format of the digital copy. --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 12:01, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::::The problem with source code in works of art is that it's always hard to determine what is source code. Look at flash movies made by jibjab.com: they use photos and drawings to create animated flash movies with words and music which usually are themselves derivative works. So what is source code? Original song with it's score? Original photos? Code they wrote using this or that program for creating flash animations? All of above? I'm not sure such a requirement will have a positive impact on culture. It is important to have an access to work without DRM restrictions. But asking an author for all the pieces he used in the process of creaton is not necessery and practical. There we have a problem of tools: most advanced programs for creating digital works are proprietary. Asking for a source code of a work is of little practical value if we do not have access for tools itself. Following that logic we could ask authors to use only free software tools what itself is a good thing, but this seems simply going too far. My opinion is, that source code is not necessity, much more important is using open formats whenever possible (and please note, that even now it's not easy if you create multimedia works). [[User:JaroslawLipszyc|JaroslawLipszyc]] 17:24, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
::::I couldn't disagree more strongly: from my own experience the freedom to modify or study a work is strongly predicated on having access to the source. Without the access to the source, these freedoms are meaningless license verbiage. Again, drawing from my own experiences in the pen-and-paper RPG world, the recent "open gaming movement" used the [http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/ogl.html Open Gaming License] was a (partial) copyleft license with  no source requirement used to license the Dungeons and Dragons roleplaying system (more popularly called the d20 System). The original d20 system documents whre provided in a modifiable format. However, without the source requirement downstream publishers simply published derivative works in PDFs and hardcopies only, effectively creating a dead-end for the works, taking from the commons but not giving back to it.
 
::::I also dispute that it isn't clear what the source code is: the GPL clearly defines this as "preferred form of the work for making modifications" which, in the cases you mention above, obviously resolves the issue for the sources of digital works. In the case of the flash animation, the source is clearly the original SWF file, the image file is its own source, and I don't see an amiguity over that (whether requirements to provide all the elements used to compose a work should also be needed is a seperate discussion).
 
::::The argument regarding properietary programs also seems spurious: in the software world not all compilers are free software, cheap or easy to access but that doesn't have any bearing on whether you license software written for these compilers as free software. Whether requiring free software tools for free content is a completely seperate discussion. --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 11:34, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::::Ricardo, what you say is "in case of works of art source code means open format". Thus basically what we have to say is very similar, we define terminology differently. [[User:JaroslawLipszyc|JaroslawLipszyc]] 12:10, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
::::That's interesting, please expand on your definition of open format: do you think the issue can be resolved by simply requiring publication in open formats, such as ODT? --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 12:30, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::::AFAIK, the common definition of open format is a format which is openly documented and (preferably) unencumbered by patents. It is insufficient w.r.t. your criteria, because by this definition PDF and Postcript are open formats (anyone can read and implement the [http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/pdf/index_reference.html PDF specification]). --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 13:15, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
::::Please note, that sometimes also formats under "reasonable and non-discriminatory license" (RAND) are treated as open, which is a big lie. I'm not sure what status PDF and Postcript have, but it seems that they are simply free. Why it is hard to extract data from PDF? I'm trying to understand in what situation open format is not enough, maybe i'm missing something. [[User:JaroslawLipszyc|JaroslawLipszyc]] 18:11, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::::As Antoine clarified, an open format requirement is fine, but more important is a modifiable, source code format. The problem with PDF and Postscript is that it is possible extract source-like information from the file, but, like software object code, I believe it's tricky and lossy. Can someone who is more familiar with PDF clarify/verify this? --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 18:58, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
::::::The "problem" (actually an understandable design decision) with PDF is that it does not have any notion of textual content (let alone semantic structure). It is a purely graphical rendering language. Say you have text "FOO BAR" in a PDF, the PDF code actually says "render letter F at centimeters (15.34,24.12), render letter O at centimeters (16.78,24.12)", etc. So even a "simple" task like extracting raw text from a PDF needs heuristics to distinguish words, paragraphs, etc. (I had the pleasure of trying to do this in pure PHP and actually get 90% good results for many documents ;-)) --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 22:12, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::::::So there is no problem. It's lot like a comic strip: PDF is a text in a hostile (graphic) envirement. But if this is authors will, it's OK. We can't outlaw comic strips, right?[[User:JaroslawLipszyc|JaroslawLipszyc]] 22:33, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
::::::::Who said anything about outlawing comic strips or PDF? I'm talking about allowing people the freedom to distribute PDFs, provided that they also supply the original, structured source document which rendered the PDF. The issue here is that its a non trivial task to modify or reverse engineer PDFs. Distributing in only non-modifiable formats (such as PDF or Flash) renders the freedom to modify the work impossible to use, and therefore meaningless. --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 23:53, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::::::::My fault, bad wording. I should talk about declaring non-free, not outlawing (tried to use a metaphore and considerably failed :-) I think you are wrong about this issue. In culture there is always some kind of source code one level deeper. If you have digitally animated movie you have compressed file good for internet sharing, than not-compressed file, analog copies for theater screenings, than you have all the code, background rendering and heroes of your story in polygons or whatever. Without all that it's hard to make some kinds of derivative works, but other kinds are perfectly possible even with low-quality internet clip. In a long run this doesn't really matter. It's the law what is important and lack of any kinds of DRM, not a format characteristic by itself. Printed book is extremely non-modifiable kind of format, but i will not declare all printed works not-free because of that. To copy a book - yes, it is tricky, you need special machines for that, scanners and OCR. But you can do it, legally and practicaly. The same applies to PDF (print it, scan it, OCR it, done), and in 5, 10 or 50 years it will be the same with video or multimedia content.[[User:JaroslawLipszyc|JaroslawLipszyc]] 17:49, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::::::Again, who said anything about declaring hard copy books as non-free? Provided the source files are freely distributed for the book the book can be free! Also your point about copying a book is invalid: The situation is no different to using a decompiler to reverse engineer object code: both processes are highly lossy and difficult which is why the FSF made source code a predicate for free software, and which is why we should do the same for free content.
 
:::::::As I stated above, publishing in a non-modifiable format such as hard copy print or PDF renders the freedom to modify and study a work meaningless. You either consider the freedom to modify to be as important as the other freedoms (read/display, copy, etc) and we should require a source copy where appropriate or you would prefer they not be exercised in certain situations, in which case this you should explain why you think it is subordinate to the other freedoms and "author's will". --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 11:52, 5 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::: Extracting anything from CVS is tricky, and any given video codec is lossy. We cant demand user friendliness, as well as we can't demand minimal resolution of a movie. My problem is different: what to do with flash, which obviously is not an open format. Are we to declare all flash works non-free by default? [[User:JaroslawLipszyc|JaroslawLipszyc]] 21:29, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::::Again, the discussion about requiring open/transparent formats is seperate to the discussion about requiring the source be distributed with free content. If you would like to discuss this second issue, please create a seperate heading for it. --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 23:53, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
::::::I think this is strictly connected, see above[[User:JaroslawLipszyc|JaroslawLipszyc]] 17:49, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::::I don't think I read anything about open/transparent sources in your above post. You can require source code without also requiring that source be open/transparent as well, so the two issues can be clearly seperated. Of more importance is whether we require source code and I would prefer to focus on that for the time being. --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 11:52, 5 May 2006 (CEST)
 
== Free expression? ==
 
[[User:Rgladwell]] said: Free expression is not the same as free content: you can have the right to free expresssion without having free content, and free content does not guarantee free expression.
 
== Right to use and perform ==
 
Apparently the current definition takes as implicit the first freedom of free software (the right to use/execute).
I suggest to make it explicit, because it allows to include "related rights" such as the right to perform (e.g. a play, a song...):
 
* '''The freedom to use and perform the work:''' The licensee must be allowed to make any use, private or public, of the work. This includes all derived uses ("related rights") such as performing or interpreting the work.
 
--[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 01:15, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
I agree that the freedom to perform is important, especially with regard to creative works such as music and film/video, and should be made more explicit. Here is my suggestion:
 
* '''The freedom to perform the work, or otherwise display it for any purpose:''' The work may be performed, broadcast, webcast, or displayed in any manner in public or private.
 
I feel like "any use" as referred to above by [[User:Antoine|Antoine]] is a bit too broad here, but perhaps it would make sense to add the derived uses portion?
 
--[[User:Elizabeth stark|Elizabeth stark]] 20:33, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
== Right to study and apply the "information" ==
 
I find the phrasing "study and apply the information" a bit confusing. The word "information" seems to imply that only the symbolic (e.g. textual) content of the work can be studied, not its inner workings or the nuances of its making. Also, as pointed elsewhere, "information" is really sterile.
 
I would rephrase it:
 
* '''The freedom to study the work and use the knowledge gained from the work:''' The licensee must be allowed to examine the work and to use the knowledge gained from the work in any way. The license may not, for example, restrict "reverse engineering".
 
--[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 01:29, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
== Applying Knowledge ==
 
First freedom now is worded as "the freedom to study the work and to apply knowledge acquired from it". This may however be a problem when you think about it in context of scientific research. Copyright is covering just a publication, but there may be (and usually are) also included other "IP" law such as patents. I understand "applying knowledge" as a very wide term. I'm not aware of any exisiting license which may guarantee that patents will be not used. However this is a very good statement if we want to describe our ideals.[[User:JaroslawLipszyc|JaroslawLipszyc]] 02:06, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
: I think it is an absolute fact that free content cannot be impeded by patents. We need to work towards a clearer distinction, I think, between expectations we have from the works which are called free content, and from the licenses which are used for free content. I don't need to use a complex license that has clauses about patents if that is never relevant to me. Similarly, regarding earlier discussions about source code, I don't need anything in my license about source code if I'm talking about an essentially transparent work such as an essay. So I think we need to work towards emphasizing this distinction more clearly, and then formulate precisely what expectations there are from a ''work'' that is considered free content.--[[User:Erik Möller|Erik Möller]] 02:35, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:: And maybe "freedom to study" is good enough as a license requirement? [[User:JaroslawLipszyc|JaroslawLipszyc]] 03:38, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
::: This is one of the cases where the absence of a clause restricting freedoms may already meet the requirements, I think. Generally, you're free to study and apply knowledge from a work, unless the terms under which you have done that restrict you from doing so. What I think is important, especially if we want this definition to be a superset of the free software definition, is that we make it clear that the work itself must be available in a format suitable for modification. Whether or not the license protects that state of transparency is optional.--[[User:Erik Möller|Erik Möller]] 09:54, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
== Non-commercial not free? ==
 
It seems very arbitrary to call popular non-commercial licenses such as CreativeCommons Attrbution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike non-free! I believe all current usages of the term free content or free license allow a non-commercial clause. Very little content will be free under this definition as few content creators allow other people to profit from their hard work without paying royalties. I see no reason why a license prohibiting the receiver from profiting from content he got for nothing can not be called free.
 
In fact, I think CC A-NC-SA is the model minimum free license, as it makes use of most of the restriction clauses permitted here plus NonCommercial. This definition should allow non-commercial licenses to fall under this umbrella. The interests of Wikimedia can still be satisfied by saying only Comercial Free Content and Fair Use were allowed. Prohibiting the reuser from making profit serves to protect the free status of the content, thus justifying its use as a restriction in the license. [[User:59.94.2.232|59.94.2.232]] 06:55, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
: You can find my thoughts on the Creative Commons NC licenses [http://intelligentdesigns.net/Licenses/NC here]. The idea that any kind of commercial venture is an "evil" from which people must be "protected" is a highly fallacious one; indeed, it is exactly the commercial use of free content and free software that has enabled some of the most exciting projects today, ranging from the adoption of free software in large sections of industry to the integration of Wikipedia content into search engines, CD-ROMs, and existing lookup tools. ''Especially'' in a collaborative context, it is essential to grant this freedom from the start, as it is virtually impossible to get permission from any contributor to a wiki for a particular commercial use.
 
: It is perfectly alright for authors and artists not to reliniquish rights in accordance with this definition. But the resulting works should not be called "free". There can be no compromise on the core freedoms in this definition. If anything, they may need to be expanded.--[[User:Erik Möller|Erik Möller]] 09:15, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
::I think that the provision on free redistribution makes it quite impossible to simply "profit from others' hard work". If someone tried to derive unfair advantage from a work, then people are free to reject the offer and are very likely to find the work that the offer is based on under more reasonable terms. In fact, if a share-alike or copyleft clause is used, then you'd be likely to find whatever was added to the original work freely available too. NC clauses do nothing to prevent unfair usage, but will prevent many legit uses.--[[User:Kari Pahula|Kari Pahula]] 11:33, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::Not to allow commercial re-use is a critical limitation, as Erik aptly pointed out in his essays, e.g. OpenSource-Jahrbuch 2006. So this content simply is NOT free. That's why Stallman does not support CC anymore, because the different models get to easily thrown into a single bucket altogether. The importance about the commercial clause is that some value-additions are ONLY possible in a commercial context, when it is possible to integrate the new content e.g. in Websites with advertisements, or sell packaged DVDs etc. To protect the idea of free it is enough to add Copyleft provisions. [[User:89.53.204.123|89.53.204.123]] 17:13, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:: There is no such thing as simply profiting from others hard work. You can propagate, advertise and store their work, but these are all of benefit to the work's author (although this '''may''' require or at least be helped by the moral right of paternity). NC is a fundamental error, and the definition of NC is causing headaches. NC is another layer of permission culture, and is not Free. The FSF and DFSG freedom definitions require that work be allowed to be sold, so it is not true that they allow NC clauses. --[[User:Rob Myers|Rob Myers]] 19:39, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
::: So - not surprisingly, I guess - I think that it is important to give some kind of recognition to those licenses that grant freedoms that are more flexible than an "all rights reserved" or "personal-use only" license.  While I agree that it is not possible to accommodate those licenses within the current definition of "free" being debated here, I do think that these can and should be classified under a different brand of licenses that enable important freedoms that are palatable to different industries than would contemplate a "free" license. --[[User:Mia Garlick|Mia Garlick]] 18:09, 2 May 2006 (PDT)
 
::The distinction between commercial and non-commercial also hinders the evolution of an open society where there is no commerial action anymore ;-) -- [[User:84.190.164.6|84.190.164.6]] 08:54, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
== Other Free Content Definitions ==
 
A took the time to compile a list of other free content definitions, feel free to update: -- [[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 14:16, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
* [http://www.okfn.org/okd/definition.html Open Knowledge Definition]
* [http://www.freeculture.org.uk/TheFreeCultureDefinition Unoficial Free Culture UK Port of Stallman's Four Freedoms]
* [http://www.freeculture.org.uk/TheFreeCultureGuidelines Unofficial Free Culture UK Port of the Debian Free Software Guidelines]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_content Wikipedia Definition]
* [http://www.freeroleplay.org/about Free RPG Community] (self-post)
 
Edited & added fc-uk definitions --[[User:Rob Myers|Rob Myers]] 19:34, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
== Recommendations ==
 
I see license compatibility as a freedom, too. The more standarised they are the more works can be combined and reused. This is crucial for a free culture movement: we have to avoid balkanisation. I suggest changing reccomendation section to reflect that threat. I believe giving recommendations for CC-BY and CC-BY-SA licenses (they are most popular) for all publicatons and art, and GFDL (Wikipedia standard) for reference content and textbooks. [[User:JaroslawLipszyc|JaroslawLipszyc]] 22:22, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:I'm not sure recommandations are our concern, apart from telling which licenses satisfy to the definition. I'd rather have a characterization of licenses and let people choose (see my proposal on the [[Talk:Licenses]] page). Also, popularity is not a sufficient metric IMHO ;-)) --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 01:17, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
==Moral right==
 
This is a somewhat off-topic subthread about moral right. I put it here for reference, but we should find a way of putting offtopic or obsolete discussions elsewhere so as to keep a clean discussion page ;-)) --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 01:03, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
Mmm... I'm not at all sure about your point about moral rights and modifying sculptures and paintings. I don't know a lot about moral rights law, but surely that would only apply if you publicly distributed the work or used the author's name in relation to the modified work? So are we talking about the freedom to modify or the freedom to distribute? --[[User:Rgladwell|Ricardo Gladwell]] 15:11, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:No, not only. Moral right includes the right to the integrity of the work, so if you modify a work (even privately), you infringe on the moral right of the author. Moral right considers that the work is part of the personality of the author. (of course, in practice, the author cannot exercise his moral right if he doesn't learn about the modification or destruction of the work) --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 15:23, 2 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:: Dear Antoine, you don't know moral rights: [http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/6bis.html the author shall have the right to claim authorship of the work and to object to any distortion, mutilation or other modification of, or other derogatory action in relation to, the said work, '''which would be prejudicial to his honor or reputation''']. If you modify a work, you infringe '''economic rights'''. You infringe moral rights only if your modification prejudices '''honor''' or '''reputation''' of the author. --[[User:Francesco Baldini|Francesco Baldini]] 22:44, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::Francesco, I do know moral rights ;) The Berne convention is a generic formulation of moral rights, but it does not dictate how states implement it in practice, and implementations are widely varying. In French right at least, it is traditionnally the author who decides what prejudices his honor or reputation. Thus, making any modification to a work, even privately, can be forbidden by moral right ''if the author decides so''. One must understand that the moral right is viewed as a fundamental right of the author (at the same level as freedom of expression, for example). So courts usually interpret it in a manner very favorable to the author.
:::Anyway, this not really the main subject here. --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 23:11, 3 May 2006 (CEST)
 
::::Daer Antoine, the Berne Covention isn't a generic formulation of moral right! :)))) In all the nations the author decides what prejudices his honor or reputation! :))) Ignorance in this matter is inexcusable: I study law and I think that you must understand that you don't know moral rights. You are confounding the right of integrity (a moral right) with the exclusive right to modification (an economic right). --[[User:Francesco Baldini|Francesco Baldini]] 00:06, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::::(rewritten answer) Ok, I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that modification ''always'' infringes moral right; I said it potentially infringes it. That's exactly what your excerpt of the Berne Convention says, by the way. --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 01:03, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
::::: By the way, moral right is really off-topic in the original thread, so I think I'm gonna detach the whole sub-thread and put it elsewhere.
::::: ...oh, and ''please'' avoid appeal to authority ("I study law"), thanks.... --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 00:55, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:::::Sorry Antoine, but I'm not a stupid. :)
You said:
 
1. "The Berne convention is a generic formulation of moral rights": '''false'''.
 
2. "In French right at least, it is traditionnally the author who decides what prejudices his honor or reputation": '''in all the countries!'''
 
3. "In practice, the author cannot exercise his moral right if he doesn't learn about the modification or destruction of the work": '''false'''
 
4. "if you modify a work (even privately), you infringe on the moral right of the author": '''false''' (where is "potentially"???)
 
I study law: this is only a fact. You can eliminate this topic and your errors, but you can eliminate your ignorance in matter. ;))) It seems that you don't accept the truth. Why?--[[User:Francesco Baldini|Francesco Baldini]] 11:02, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
::::::You are trying to split hairs.
::::::1. Berne Convention is a generic formulation of moral rights (as well as other rights, of course - my wording was elliptic, but since you know the Berne Convention it seemed obvious that you were able to understand it)
::::::2. If it's true in all countries, it's true in France, isn't it? (but it's not true in countries which ''don't have a moral right'', you know)
::::::3. This is a simple matter of logic, you cannot exercise your moral right if you don't know something has happened to your work. ''How could you sue for something you don't know has happened?''
::::::4. "Potentially" was implied by previous messages in the thread, where I explained that the author ''could'' sue for modification on the basis of moral right. To understand a message, it's often useful to read previous messages in the thread...
::::::And why do you think I'm gonna eliminate the topic? That's ridiculous.
::::::--[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 14:20, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
 
Antoine, you are an '''incredible sophist'''! :-D  Clap clap clap! I think that you prefer to kill a children rather than admit your evident errors. :-D End of thread for me. You have the last word. ;-) --[[User:Francesco Baldini|Francesco Baldini]] 14:54, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
:I like that statement ("you prefer kill a children rather than admit your evident errors"), although I don't know if it applies to me - honestly I've never thought about killing a children, perhaps I should give it a try. Thanks for the good laugh :-))
:On a more serious note, perhaps I should be wary of sophistry indeed. Hmmm. --[[User:Antoine|Antoine]] 15:01, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
== Portals ==
 
I have no problem with the idea of portals in some sort of unofficial capacity and on this wiki. I think we should encourage it.  However, placing the link it in the definition, at least as it has been suggested/worded here, makes me a little uneasy. -- [[User:Benjamin Mako Hill|Benjamin Mako Hill]] 17:18, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
: Could you be more specific about how it makes you uneasy, or just edit the description?--[[User:Erik Möller|Erik Möller]] 21:35, 4 May 2006 (CEST)
 
== God et al.==
 
A couple of comments:
* "Any original work of authorship is copyrighted. Under copyright law, authors are considered God-like "creators" and are given legal powers they can use against those who duplicate "their" content in altered or unaltered form."
** This sounds off (the God bit -- which notion of a God), and the scare quotes on "their." I'd say something like "Copyright grants an author a monopoly on certain actions ..."
* can the license require attribution be removed from any derived works? -- reagle

Latest revision as of 06:19, 19 May 2024

* '''[{{fullurl:Talk:Definition/Unstable|action=edit&section=new}} Start a new discussion topic]'''

* [{{fullurl:Talk:Definition/Unstable|oldid=2129}} Archived comments until June 20, 2006]
* [{{fullurl:Talk:Definition/Unstable|oldid=8702}} Archived comments until January 3, 2010]

----
__TOC__

== [[User:TruthWorldOrder]] Edits ==

For what it's worth, I agree with [[User:Mormegil]] and his [http://freedomdefined.org/index.php?title=Definition%2FUnstable&action=historysubmit&diff=12071&oldid=12070 recent revert]. I don't understand what problem [http://freedomdefined.org/index.php?title=Definition%2FUnstable&action=historysubmit&diff=12044&oldid=12024 the edits in question] are trying to solve. Perhaps if they are explained them here, we can talk about it. —<b>[[User:Benjamin Mako Hill|<font color="#C40099">m</font><font color="#600099">a</font><font color="#2D0399">k</font><font color="#362365">o</font>]][[User_talk:Benjamin Mako Hill|<font color="#000000">๛</font>]]</b> 19:41, 26 September 2011 (EDT)

== Suppressing copyleft ==

In re 171.226.171.169’s ''I am trying to delist GFDL, GPL, LGPL, CC-BY-SA and other copyleft licenses'': While I can understand (and, for a part, agree with) the opinion that copyleft licenses are not “free”, I have to point out that this would be an ''extreme'' change of the definition. Note that this definition originates at Wikipedia/Wikimedia Foundation, which use copyleft licenses extensively (the whole body of Wikipedia text is licensed under CC-BY-SA, for start), and which use the Definition as the [[wikimedia:Resolution:Licensing policy|criterion of acceptability]]. Changing the Definition so as to exclude copyleft would mean the whole Wikipedia contents would be against its own rules.

I just can’t imagine the definition could change so radically (without becoming a completely different definition). An alternate definition is possible, but would be exactly that – ''alternate'', not just a new version of this.

--[[User:Mormegil|Mormegil]] 09:48, 17 October 2011 (EDT)

I'd think that CC-BY-SA and LGPL may be free, but GFDL and GPL are '''obviously''' non-free. Because you can include CC-BY-SA or LGPL works as part of works distributed under other licenses, but you cannot do the same thing with GPL and GFDL works. This is also why Wikipedia has moved from GFDL to GFDL + CC-BY-SA.
Section 5 "Combining Documents" of the GFDL:
:You may combine the Document with other documents released under this License, under the terms defined in section 4 above for modified versions, provided that you include in the combination all of the Invariant Sections of all of the original documents, unmodified, and list them all as Invariant Sections of your combined work in its license notice, and that you preserve all their Warranty Disclaimers.
 
:The combined work need only contain one copy of this License, and multiple identical Invariant Sections may be replaced with a single copy. If there are multiple Invariant Sections with the same name but different contents, make the title of each such section unique by adding at the end of it, in parentheses, the name of the original author or publisher of that section if known, or else a unique number. Make the same adjustment to the section titles in the list of Invariant Sections in the license notice of the combined work.
 
:In the combination, you must combine any sections Entitled "History" in the various original documents, forming one section Entitled "History"; likewise combine any sections Entitled "Acknowledgements", and any sections Entitled "Dedications". You must delete all sections Entitled "Endorsements".

[[Special:Contributions/171.226.97.137|171.226.97.137]] 07:56, 31 October 2011 (EDT)

: Maybe I don’t understand your specific point, but AFAICT you ''cannot'' generally combine a [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ CC-BY-SA] work with a work under an other license, or, more specifically, when you combine a CC-BY-SA work with another work, the result must be licensed under CC-BY-SA as well. That is the same copyleft as in GFDL/GPL. On the other hand, LGPL allows you to combine an LGPL work (usually, a library) with another work (usually, an application), and distribute the result under any license. You cannot do that with CC-BY-SA, that is what the “share-alike” (-SA) tag is all about. On the other hand, [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ CC-BY] is a non-copyleft license which would allow that (but it is not the license Wikipedia uses). --[[User:Mormegil|Mormegil]] 11:52, 1 November 2011 (EDT)

: True, GPL might allow less freedoms than for instance the MIT license. However that does not necesserily make GPL a non-free license. If you define a ''free license'' as the license with the most freedoms, then even the MIT/BSD/... licenses would have to be considered non-free, then only public domain could be considered truly free. However as there already is a definition for the public domain, the whole project of "Definition of Free Cultural Works" would not make sense then. Of course, the problem remains as of how broad you would want the Definition of Free Cultural Works to be. But from looking at the previous versions, the idea and intention of Definition of Free Cultural Works seems to have been to cover copyleft licenses as well, as they do not harm the main idea and purpose of Free Content. As [[User:Mormegil|Mormegil]] said before, excluding copyleft licenses is a completely different definition. Maybe you are more looking for http://copyfree.org/standard/ instead? --[[User:T X|T X]] 14:36, 1 November 2011 (EDT)

== Definition of "Can" missing ==

"Free Cultural Works are works which anyone can use, study, copy, change and improve..." -> Tribes in a lot of countries don't have computers - and therefore ''can't'' use the MIT/GPL/... licensed software I wrote. So my work is not a Free Cultural Work? (I guess such a conclusion is not intended)

Maybe a definition for certain words, like "can", "may", ... should be added. Similiarly as keywords were specified for IETF's Internet Standards / RFCs (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2119). --[[User:T X|T X]] 13:37, 1 November 2011 (EDT)

In a similar vein, "should" is used a lot where some might argue for "must" (see http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt ) ([http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-licenses/2011-December/006433.html idea from]). - [[User:KTucker|K]] 17:48, 12 December 2011 (EST)

== Merging 4 freedoms to 3, explicitly adding 'Distribution' ==

Free Cultural Works are works which anyone can
* Use
* Study
* Copy
* Change and Improve 

I'm having two points I do not quite like about these four freedoms:

* 'Study' is a form of 'Use': It's just a more specific form of usage - which, agreed, a lot of EULAs and laws try to exclude.
* 'Distribution' should be added: If you were only looking at these four freedoms, even some content which you get via an NDA might fit these points. You can use, study and even copy the work for your own needs, you may change and improve it - however you won't be allowed to share any of these things afterwards.


Therefore my suggestion, making more a whole trinity with each point of the trinity being a duality:

* Use and Study
* Copy and Distribute
* Change and Improve

So that the second verb of each freedom is actually a more specific form of the first verb of each freedom. The purpose of the second verb is to better reflect the true, good intent of the more neutral, more generic action defined in the first verb of a freedom, and to place some emphasize on this good intent, the idea behind it.

(I'm not quite sure whether I'd prefer the word 'distribute' or 'share'. Maybe a native English speaker could give some insight on what (s)he thinks the differing connotations might be.) --[[User:T X|T X]] 04:25, 4 November 2011 (EDT)

:: The libre knowledge definition puts it this way:
<center>
{| class="wikitable" width="50%" 
|
Users of libre knowledge are free to

:(0) use the work for any purpose
:(1) study its mechanisms, to be able to modify and adapt it to their own needs
:(2) make and distribute copies, in whole or in part
:(3) enhance and/or extend the work and share the result.
|}
</center>
::i.e. "study" is about being able to adapt/modify - use (0) and adapt (1) to ''help yourself'', "copy" (2) is about sharing to ''help your neighbour'', and the last freedom (3) is to clarify that you can also share your modified versions (to ''help the community'').

::Personally, I prefer to retain the link with the [http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html free software definition] as does the [http://wikieducator.org/Declaration_on_libre_knowledge libre knowledge definition]. Knowledge and cultural resources cannot be regarded as free if they cannot be accessed and modified with libre software. Consistency is important. - [[User:KTucker|K]] 18:12, 12 December 2011 (EST)

==Libre==

Please make it clear that this would also be the "[[Libre|libre cultural works]]" definition. 
:: The libre knowledge definition is completely compatible as far as I can tell. It appears in some form on the following pages: [http://wikieducator.org/Declaration_on_libre_knowledge Declaration on libre knowledge], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libre_Knowledge Libre knowledge on Wikipedia] and [http://wikieducator.org/Say_Libre Say libre]. i.e. at some key point state that free means "libre"/"free as in freedom" - perhaps as simply as writing free/libre at least once near the beginning. - [[User:KTucker|K]] 18:37, 3 March 2012 (EST)
:: I have created a parallel "libre" version - [[Libre|Libre Cultural Works Definition]] - but would prefer this not to be necessary. Discuss this issue right here or on the libre version's [[Talk:Libre|discussion page]] - Thanks - [[User:KTucker|K]] 18:39, 5 March 2012 (EST)
::I find the gratis meaning of "free" to be very confusing to newcomers and am in favor of reworking the text to use "libre" or another unambigious adjective. [[User:Cov|Cov]] 19:18, 2 May 2013 (EDT)

== Free-Libre-Open Hardware Definition ==

Hello, I'm starting a "friendly fork" of the OSHW Definition here because, currently engaged in writing a free/libre/open hardware project proposal to a set of potential clients who are not at all familiar with the whole genre of free/libre/open approaches, I feel the current OSHW Definition is not concise enough to just reproduce as an excerpt. I also feel the current OSHW Definition risks the same division between "open source" methods and "free" ethics that has complicated relations for years within the free/libre/open source software community. 

Back in 2004 while preparing a presentation deck for my Director General in government, I needed to cram the OSI definition into a single screen: http://www.goslingcommunity.org/gtec2004.shtml In the end I felt the short version I had adapted was more useful as a definition than the original, in the same sense that dictionaries also hold to very concise phrases. Over the years too, I came to see the importance of including both the methods and ethics elements into projects. 

So what appears here as a "fork" to facilitate discussion is the current draft text that appears in my own free/libre/open hardware document. 

''DRAFT: '' http://freedomdefined.org/User:Jpotvin/Free-Libre-Open_Hardware_Definition

I hope nobody is offended by this thorough change. Putting it up as a fork here just seemed to best way to discuss it without interfering with your main definition text.

Regards,

Joseph Potvin

== Updating and creating a stable version. ==

Hello, my name is Michelle Kosik, I'm new to this so please excuse my inexperience. I was hopping we can make the font bigger or bolder. How do I change the version to the stable vershion?

: You don’t just change the stable version. See [[Authoring process]] for more information. --[[User:Mormegil|Mormegil]] ([[User talk:Mormegil|talk]]) 05:18, 26 March 2013 (EDT)

== Permalink ==

[[Definition]] should contain a link to [[Definition/1.1]] to make it easier for people to refer to that version specifically.  (People who write books, for example, might not intend to link to [[Definition]] which is a moving target, but to [[Definition/1.1]] which their book refers to.)

: I added the link into the grey introduction box. Do you think it is OK? --[[User:Mormegil|Mormegil]] ([[User talk:Mormegil|talk]]) 11:58, 17 February 2015 (EST)

== Expire of licenses if break ==

Some licenses, that are declared as free, expire, if you break them. I can't see that this restriction is allowed. -- [[User:David23x|David23x]] ([[User talk:David23x|talk]]) 10:55, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

== Source requirement on stable vs. optional source offer on unstable ==

I have noticed, thanks to '''some''' people on a IRC channel on chat.freenode.net, that the stable version requires source files to be redistributed and be on a format/standard/codec that is friendly to free/libre software, while the unstable version puts redistribution of source files as an option.

I, personally, see that, under the stable definition, almost no work would qualify as free/libre cultural work, not even those under free/libre licenses.

I'm not a free/libre culture activist (I'm only a free/libre software activist that thinks that non-functional data (like images, sound, and such) should be at least shareable), but I just want to know why the changes related to this difference weren't made to the stable version? What's the reasoning for holding it? I know there's no consensus, but can you describe the points where the opinions
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